September 11, 2009

Moltmann, Session II, Day 3

Tony Jones on Moltmann:

Disability, Homosexuality, & Church in Mission (or the church only in mission)
  • from Diane, a disabled person who found language to see herself as God does in crucfed does a person with disabilities- how do they have accsss to the church in power of HS?
  • JM- a disability concerned him, b/c older bro had severe disability. I think the church must be, consistent of disabled, not abled person. congregation w/o disabled persons is a disabled congregation.
  • TJ- rational beings as humans- imago dei, but there are humans w/o ability to reason. we wouldn't say they are not created in image of God. how does disability of reason effect idea of imago dei
  • JM- imago dei- not of qualification of human, but of relationships of God toward human, which human is image, resonance of God. relationships of God to every human being, this cannot be destroyed by disability nor by sin.
  • simile tuo?- response to God, our relationship to God. life, faith, and responsibility and conformity of our life to will of god. first relationship in regard to humans, is in every human being be a Xn or muslim or atheist, every single person without qualification. so you m ust respect God in every person we meet. the second, the simile...our relationship to god, God crated all man equal, we must respect image of God in every person.
  • TJ- you bring up Constitution, who are influenced by John Locke- theory of inalienable human rights. some theo and philo (macintyre, haeurwas, etc say they are unicorns)- they say these are made up. no inalienable rights. we determine the rights, but there is no such thing as transcendence universal inalienable right. what do you think about universal rights?
  • JM- praise doc of independence for saying this. 1978- wrote doc- God's rights and Human rights. adopted by denom bodies.
  • Unfortunately, dictatorial gov't denied citizens human rights according to the same line of thought. But every person has inalienable rights. you can commit crimes against humanity. there is an implementation of human rights united nations. US didn't sign the doc for int'l trials according to human rights.
  • this is good, for the growing world community based in human rights- or there will be no world community at all.
  • So, it is true.
  • TJ- Rowan Williams- proposed b/c of growing proportion of Muslims in GB, there should be pluralization of law to reflect the Shari'a law.
  • JM- This was not good for Muslim women, who said, do we not have rights like veryone else? I do not understand Williams on this point, or the maybe the British system.
  • You cannot relative th rights of everyone, b/c no one can be brought to court. This is an impossibility.
  • TJ- you've referred to God as he and HS as she in our conversation. coming up with pronouns appropriately intimate and personal for god, but don't anthropomorphize god with gender identity, is difficult for describing god in finite language
  • JM- god it not he, she, or it. god is god. we should not use god's divinity to justify a gender role, etc.
  • image can be described as Trinity is neither Father, Son, or HS: but a community. this can be reflected in human community. need united community.
  • TJ- filioque clause - lead to monarchical theism or trinity. rely on eastern theology.
  • Great schism brought filioque clause
  • JM- practical side- 1985- conf. in Rome. on Holy Spirit. john Pope II, read and when came to Nicene creed, read it in Greek where there is no filioque.
  • TJ- you've really made strong point of how esoteric theology has consequences for our idea of Father, Son, SPirit can serve for King ad surfs, master slave, etc. Maybe monarchial theism is supported to hold onto authority. So the filioque leads to subordination of Spirit, thus the surfs, humans, oppressed.
  • JM_ criticism of Barth- in trinity there is community of commanding father and obedient Son. So heaven is above, earth below. soul above, body below. man above, woman below.
  • SEX!
  • TJ- Paul, Augustine, all talked about sex. Sexuality is a schismatic topic and many have withdrawn from denom fights, b/c of schismatic nature. May have been filioque 1000 yrs ago, btu now it is who can be ordained
  • JM- first let me say...this is no problem in germany. no struggle about homosexuality
  • Tj why?
  • JM
  • because church in germany is about gospel not about sex.
  • we believe in justification not by human work, but by God's work.
  • homosexual, heterosexual, whoever believes in faith alone is saved and certainly abled to be ordained in community.
  • would not say that a gay partnership is equal, for a marriage between man and owmen is to further children,
  • but have no problems blessing such a partnership.
    why not bless a partnership.
  • homosexuality is neither a sin or crime, like near-sightedness is neither a sin or crime.
  • don't understand schism or heat of debate.
  • Questions:
  • TJ- eschatology and what happens after this existence. - in face of many deaths, am i right to trust community in future...jesus' saying that there will be no marriage in that experience of life.
  • JM-I don't want to get into this dispute with Jesus.
  • But i trust that those who died are not dead, they are with us, watching over us and we live in their presence and can feel occasionally their presence. according to Calvin, they are growing until they reach the destiny for which they were created. if life was cut short, God will bring what he had begun to its intended end. death cannot end God to do this, but God cannot be overcome by death. He will bring life to fruition.
  • Barth was once asked by woman- do you think we'll see beloved again. and Barth answered yes, and the others too.
  • Fuzz goes on stage.
  • TJ- church is agent of God's mission world.
  • What is the church?
  • JM- there are many perspectives on it. For a long time we've said its a body of risen Christ, after vatican II, catholics spoke of people OF god. if you say this, you must also say that God has 2 parts of his people: Israel and the church.
  • and the mission agency is not only through the church of hte people's but also Israel. so we must take care of both sides, not only looking after poor and sick, but also the Jews, elected people of God.
  • Understanding of mission of church-
  • nowadays we have dialogue everywhere but this is not good, for it has no goal. if dialogue is to convert, there is an end, a goal and you can dialogue. it is good to know other religion communities. dialogue need common ground. so we have special relatipnship- partner in mission.
  • Fuzz- church consultant, collects stories and spreading rumors of hope. indebted to Moltmann. you say in books, not so much question of what is teh church, but where is the church. where have you seen, the where is now that we havent traditionally seen in the orthodoxy of the past?
  • JM_ one hand, mission of risen Christ. who is in me, i am in him... other hand, the inviting voice of Christ. whoever visits them visits me. they- the hungry, poor, ochlos, etc in the world.
  • invitation of Christ on the outside. church must be present in special places and special way.
  • Fuzz- changing forms of inside outside, new communities ..not geographical..etc. what is future of congregation
  • JM- believe in face to face community. cyberspace may be nice for communication, but a cyber church is a church w.o the Eucharist.
  • in this new media, you can see and listen, but you cannot feel, taste, smell. only two of sense are engaged, other senses are diminished and no longer developed. make test in school, where children already have iphones, etc. let them close eyes and feel, tehy can't differentiate between wood and plastic- b/c no education of emotion, feelings.
  • baby develops first with feeling senses, then get misdeveloped with emphasis on seeing and hearing.
  • belive strongly in face to face communities, see each other, talk, eat, drink togehter and be a community of FULL senses.
  • TJ- Eucharist- seems we call it so many names. RO proposes church should live by Eucharistic rationality, center point. Zwingilian experience moves toward communion like agape meal, less sacramental, but communal gathering and foretaste of coming kingdom. you used Eucharist, do you see role of communion in church?
  • JM- hot point or most difficult ecumenical point. believes very strongly, that we dont celebrate in Lord's table in our theories. we may have different theories in the way he is present. but let's celebrate his presence first. so after the eating and drinking at lord's table, thhhen we talk about different theories. dont start with theories, or will nover come to the table. we will have an empty stomach. go to any invitation we hear the inviting words of X. I dont care where I'm at, I take it.
  • Jesus invites all those who are weary, not just Catholics or presbys, but all.
  • Fuzz- thinking eschatology- to spend eternity together, we should now each other now. SO
  • JM- transubstantiation- evil theory. we believe as Lutherans or reformed as real presence of Christ, whether is transformed, etc. what is important is that we believe in presence of Christ in both forms: bread and wine. and we reject Catholic tradition of wine for priest and bread for people.
  • Fuzz- go back to understanding of church. cyber reality is one form. but more and more as churches are more missional, the focus is in community not gathering. church attendance is less frequent in west. partly so busy, stress of time as commodity, so spending time with neighbor is more important than gathering together of worship.
  • JM- this may be true of those who have a job, but not for the unemployed. those with a job, this is a question of priority. question of whether they should go to vacation, etc or more important to be part of congregation. they have no question of priorities.
  • Fuzz- is church only church when gathered or scattered
  • JM- both sides. we gather them together and send them into teh world.
  • Fuzz- is there a weekly breathing, gathering and sending
  • JM- tradition of OT and NT-work day and divine day is good ecology. sabbath is good ecology, we move in and out of it.
  • JM- writing in ethics for concept of justice and righteousness according to biblical ideas.
  • TJ- who should we be reading?
  • what are you reading
  • JM- the BIBLE. depends on your eyes: curiosity to find new things in old book, you'll find it. but traditional understanding it may be boring. full of dangerous memories.
  • read: Volf, Phillip Clayton, tony jones, john cobb,
  • many good people coming up, so we can step down and have rest.
Afterward, they opened the floor for the crowd to reveal their gratefulness to Moltman. Several people were given the opportunity to say thank you for your work, life, thought, etc.
I was able to to stand up and give thanks to Moltmann for giving me the words in seminary to be able to keep my faith.

Thoughts to follow up later.

1 comment:

Adam Moore said...

Haven't read through all this yet - just went through the bolded lines - but this looks great. Thanks Joe. I'm glad you got to go. Wish I could have joined you.