Moltmann, Session II, Day 2

Crucified God:

Moderated by my friend Ann Pittman plus some other folks, Danielle Shroyer, John Eaton (vision community church, NY), (common table)

• DS- life changing book, made sense of soteriology and what happened on the cross.
• Perspectives for questions and moderation- pastoral & life
  
• there is no answer to suffering, b/c we wont accept any explanation. Resurrection is the answer, but there is no explanation for why you must die or suffer. all explanations are wrong and unacceptable.
• we don't want to have an answer that would bring us to peace with suffering, but if we feel the presence of suffering Christ next to us or in us that he shares; then we have a consolation that we are not alone.
  
• God will bring to a good end what he has begun in the human person- i believe that. JM
  
• How can God let these evil things happen?
  
• Where is God? is God here. But people critique God. So do we blame this question on philosophy and Liebniz. "comes from stoic philo: if he is omnipotent and good, so he cant be both, only one." This comes from grk. philo, not from Israel or God of JC.
• not only defend Jesus sympathy, but also the bereavement of the Father. If JC was true in saying my god, why have you forsaken me..then father is forsaken by Son. Two sides of triune one, suffers bereavement as we suffer forsakenness. this is a consolation.
• vulnerability of God- teaching presence of JC, instead of a God apart from JC. All God talk must come from and be centered in JC.
• "If it weren't for Jesus I would be an atheist like the other people in my family"
  
• looking at history, not convinced that God has everything under control. but looking at nature, etc...would never have occurred to me that there is a loving being. ONly convinced that God is love through Jesus. Don't like talk about a god, there are so many evil gods.
  
• people sometimes are disappointed by a God that suffers with them instead of pulling them out of the situation. how does the suffering God give us hope.
• first suffering God is compassionate God. God is there in your distress, never far away, but suffering with you. On other hand, the consequence of death for Christ was new life, eternal life. So i trust that the God who bears and has compassion on me will bring resurrection and new life. Suffering on one hand, resurrecting, triumphal God.
• Too make a point you must be one sided: in ongoing dialoguew ith others, you must be one-sided or you will kill the debate. so the more i think about, the theology of the cross must end with a theo of resurrection. i learned this with Paul...in Romans...how much more is grace than sin, resurrection than crucifixion.
  
• TJ- continuing line of theodicy and questioning the validity of the theodicy question: "atheists are closer to god than most theists, b/c they are arguing with God constantly."- Volf. Did moltmann meet christ and back into theism.
• JM- only believes in God of JC. His God becomes my God. theism is general understanding of transcendence that there is a higher being.
• types of atheism:
• Protest Atheism- Ivan Karamazov- Dost.- Bro Karamazov- "i have nothing in God in heaven, but I have rejected that there is no justice on earth." This type of atheism very pop. after war.
  
• another type of atheism- banality- dawkins, etc.
  
• the theodicy question is" if there is a god why is there evil." best answer is there is no god. then question of why is there evil collapses. So keeping god in question, keeps the conversation on evil alive.
• you can live without God in your life, but you will miss out on a lot of the liveness of life.
• Dawkins has another word. For him, genes. genes are not altruistic, or egoistic, but parts.
• protest hope (DS)= anticipate, transcend the limits of reality into the realm of possibility, anticipate the earth on which righteousness will dwell. so every piece of righteousness now is an anticipation that forms a new earth, an everlasting earth.
• how do we do this, resist and give hope: "one follows the sermon on the mount."
• resist capital punishment,
  
• the call is not only to pray, but to pray and watch. open your eyes to God and see what is a contradiction to God. and dont close your eyes and see the new world. pray with open eyes.
  
• early Xns were called atheists for refusing to serve roman gods/polity.
  
• two crosses in early Xnty: Golgotha of JC, one is a dream cross of Constantine. since that time we ahve had two crosses in beginning. Many crosses we see in Xn nations, buildings, etc is the cross of Const.
• Saint George- changed from martyr to dragon killer. old symbolism of Xn empire that has worked until present day.
• I agree with Anabaptist we must go back to origin to find new future of Xnty for the world, back past the Xn imperialism.
  
• 2 Pet. 3:13- HOPE
• Atonement theories- substitionary? fuller? victor?
  
• based on crucified God? not sure, identification theory, in that God identified with godless and forsaken aspact of humanity on the cross..so the atonement happens as we identity with Christ on the cross. Double, bilateral identification. Does this economic transaction takes place? Very appealing that God suffered and was tempted, not just nice tory, but walked in our shoes and when we identify we his suffering thats atonement - Tony Jones
• Moltmann response-
• Christology of solidarity. suffers with us// second- suffers for us, the guilty. both sides belong together. For us...reconciling suffering. but must see both sides together. given up for our sins and raised for our justification. whole process is justification.
  
• forgiveness of sin on hand, resurrection into new life on the other. (justification is both)
• another point- on one side- tradition of justification of sinner, forgive and reborn. BUT what about the victims of sin? God is righteous for giving justice to those who suffer. justification of victim is perhaps first act, in practical terms...sinners who've become guilty of their victim only have a sort memory if they have one at all. but those who've suffered always remember. so if you are guilty, and want to enter into truth of life, listen to victims b/c they can tell you who you really are.
• sacrament of repentance: confess, change mind, then make good that you do good evil as much as evil that you've done. but there is no sacrament of justification for the victims for what they have felt. they must overcome the feelings of revenge, etc from suffering the evil at hands of others. Then they must be alleviated and given a new self confidence, which victims don't often have- then the end, they must have the divine key- to forgive.
  
• Jail of Birminham- MLK= teaching the victims to forgive the perpetrators.
  
• Love- helpful about your work, re-frames and thinking in new ways of old things: power struggles.
  
• in love of life, you risk disappointment and be ready to suffer with and or for others, and be ready to feel them dying....to feel or bring in their dying inside of you.
• "fear in west, we talk about the cross in a personalized way so that it is only FOR US. Jesus died just for me to get somewhere. IN CG- all creation finds a place for redemption." DS
• talk to us about creation redemption- we lost cosmic dimensions found in Col and Phil. That christ died for redemption of universe. even cosmos needs salvation.
• universal salavtion is about: not that all humans will be saved; but that the UNIVERSE will be saved.
  
• Christ became human so humans and whole cosmos might become place where God dwells, and by this will be deified.
  
• important to see that at end, all embracing power, not just only salvation of my soul or my personal salvation and rest of world can go to hell...but in the end there will be restoration of all things in Christ. this is according to pietist, german tradition...the restoration is bringing back all things in the end. resurrection is all about restoration of all things.
• Modern experience of ecological crisis- we need this cosmic dimension.
• are you a Xn universalism or would you rather be called something else
• "im afraid 'im not a universalist, b/c there are perhaps some people i dont want to see again. but god may be a unversalist, b/c God created them and may want to see them again."
• universalism is not about to speak about all humans, but all of the universe.
• I don't want to go to heaven, angels have home in heaven. i want to be raised on earth and live on new earth where justice dwells. and in the end God will be all in all, that is heaven.
  
• Luther once said, on treatise for preparing for dying...don't look at hell in destiny of others or for self...but look at hell in wounds of Christ, b/c Christ suffered. so in wounds of christ, you must look if you want to talk about hell.